new itb KA24DE numbers

[Greaser_]

Whats up peeps.

Since the old thread got locked i'm puting this here.



Made some changes to the old setup. Had it at a drift event and it started misfiring and generally had no power. It broke all 4 ring lands on the SOHC pistons and was making 170rwhp when i tore it apart.

So I bored the block .060 over and put in weisco 10.5:1 pistons. Went with a thicker .040 headgasket and made no other changes to the internals of the motor.....well other than weight matching the rods as they were 6 grams different from each other.

I had some hayabusa injector failures so i changed to WRX injectors and they work great. Heres the chart and i'll give some minor details to the changes that made the extra power.



Its an insane drive. Spins 275's out back like a turbo car.

Well the changes that made the power:

new .060 over block with forged pistons
a more permanent 10" of vacuum setup
10w30 in diff and trans


Dont give me credit yet. I'm a big fat liar. Last time i posted up the 200rwhp chart it was uncorrected. SAE numbers were 190rwhp. So heres the old motor vs the new motor SAE corrected.






enjoy! if you want any other dyno chart comparos lemme know.

[gunluvS14]

dayum, nicely done
160rtq @ 3k is nice

u put such lightweight oil into the drivetrain, is it safe in term of drivetrain shock?

[Greaser_]

dunno. wanted to find out. We'll find out at the next practice drift event.

[DJPyro]

I think this project is totally cool.

I don't recall, do you have any video footage? I'd love to hear this beast.

[Greaser_]

yeah i do.

Pungo Drift Event 4/19/08 - Video 2

[janders211]

Those are great numbers..good job! Is that on 93 octane?

[Greaser_]

nope. 100.

i have no wish to find out if it will run on 93.

[Nikeboy355]

Sell me your secrets...

Can we get a cleaner pic of the motor?...
And a cleaner motor while you're at it... haha...

[dentsportgarage]

Sick, I'd love to hear this car with a super close dogbox.

[McRussellPants]

u put such lightweight oil into the drivetrain, is it safe in term of drivetrain shock?

with no real grip and no torque to run real grip he won't have a problem with it. The KA/SR trans doesn't really start to hate life until 350+ ftlbs and 275s.


So... 10.5:1 compression and you have to run 100 octane? sick.

[Black96]

Nice work!

[Wantboost]

Originally Posted by McRussellPants

with no real grip and no torque to run real grip he won't have a problem with it. The KA/SR trans doesn't really start to hate life until 350+ ftlbs and 275s.


So... 10.5:1 compression and you have to run 100 octane? sick.

True statement... once i put 275's on my s13 my sr20 tranny decided it had enough and my 2nd gear synchro and sleeve promptly gave me the finger and turned to powder

[Greaser_]

Originally Posted by McRussellPants

with no real grip and no torque to run real grip he won't have a problem with it. The KA/SR trans doesn't really start to hate life until 350+ ftlbs and 275s.


So... 10.5:1 compression and you have to run 100 octane? sick.

what are you talking about ....no real grip ? and no real torque? define a "real" setup.


i know how to save parts. been there done that with high hp setups.


i Choose to run 100. You didnt build your car to run on 87 did you? Well i didnt build my car to run on 93.

[Greaser_]

Originally Posted by Nikeboy355

Sell me your secrets...

Can we get a cleaner pic of the motor?...
And a cleaner motor while you're at it... haha...

since those pics ive made some changes, added radiator ducting, sealed the motor up for the vac setup and changed around the some of the wiring.

The motor is spotless. Well the valve cover could use a fresh coat but thats wrinkle black. I love it and everyone else hates it.


When i coat the header and repaint the valve cover i'll refresh.

[Caithness]

Cool car. I can't believe it took until 2008 for somebody to build and document a high-effort NA KA build in a 240. Nice to see it can make the power it should be able to. And with only hundreds of hours of testing and fabbing and tuning to get it there!

I'm going to run out and build a 220whp NA KA right now. Where do you buy the kit?

[drift fiend]

shhhh....welll i got n/a build in the works.im aimin for that 200 spot myself...but its about time someone proved these haters wrong

[Greaser_]

yeah its actually up at 225wheel right now. Implementing electric water pump, and negotiating methanol or E85 changeover.

heres a recent video from the last practice session. I suck but you can hear the power the car is making.

[drift fiend]

what did u change on it?new cams or cam timin was changed??sounds sick and moves quick

[Greaser_]

using the V3 cams and jwt gears i couldnt get the intake cam to open where it was supposed to using the jwt gear maxed out.

So i put the intake cam on the exhaust and the exhaust cam on the intake and didnt use any of JWT's markings and just installed the cam where i wanted. it picked up another 5 and maxxed out my 320cc injectors.

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by Greaser_

yeah its actually up at 225wheel right now. Implementing electric water pump, and negotiating methanol or E85 changeover.

E85 and methanol will only lower your HP numbers unless you add retard to your intake cam, use larger injectors, and up the fuel pressure.
Aromatics are the only way to go. It will increase BTU's, it has a higher rated Kj, than ethanol or even refined gasoline... Right now street fuel is rated at about 144,000 BTU, when aromatics were used and in abundance BTU rating was at about 221,000BTU's. The energy of street fuels has dropped and a good reason for that is by adding ethanol supplements. It's a no brainer ethanol sucks....

You can take 2gallons of 93 octane, mix it with a gallon of xylene or toulene and get better results than you are probably having with ( I would be assuming VP or sunoco 100Octane).

Anyway the electric pump is an awsome idea.

[Black96]

^^^ Here we go again ^^^



Nice work Greaser! Glad to see you're still getting more out of it.

[McRussellPants]

Originally Posted by Greaser_

what are you talking about ....no real grip ? and no real torque? define a "real" setup.

My bad. 180ftlbs for 2000rpm is pretty real.

[greaser]

you mean 1500rpm?



i had a long response about my experiences and my intentions and goals but its really just a pissing match. so yeah, my all motor ka is a waste of time/money.


yes, i'm a moron for not going turbo or SR
yes, i'm an idiot for not running pump gas.
yes, i'm a hack for not calculating every aspect
yes, i should be sponsored by mediocrity.com

[greaser]

Originally Posted by BigVinnie

E85 and methanol will only lower your HP numbers unless you add retard to your intake cam, use larger injectors, and up the fuel pressure.
Aromatics are the only way to go. It will increase BTU's, it has a higher rated Kj, than ethanol or even refined gasoline... Right now street fuel is rated at about 144,000 BTU, when aromatics were used and in abundance BTU rating was at about 221,000BTU's. The energy of street fuels has dropped and a good reason for that is by adding ethanol supplements. It's a no brainer ethanol sucks....

You can take 2gallons of 93 octane, mix it with a gallon of xylene or toulene and get better results than you are probably having with ( I would be assuming VP or sunoco 100Octane).

Anyway the electric pump is an awsome idea.

none of that works. tried it. it doesnt make power.


what makes power is alcohol. **** picked up like 20 wheel. cold ass runners.

[Prok0]

Jesus christ, that dude is still posting here.. lawl

You said you were running a vacuum pump greaser? Any info on that?

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by greaser

none of that works. tried it. it doesnt make power.


what makes power is alcohol. **** picked up like 20 wheel. cold ass runners.

wtf? What are your engine temps and A/Fr's looking like?
I know a couple guys in brazil I've been chatting with that use a ethanol/methanol mixture but the Compression ratio, is way higher like in the 12:1 and 13:1...........

If you are going to start messing around with loads of ethanol,methanol.... You may want to watch the proportions of methanol, it will degrade your nitril injectors.

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by Prok0

Jesus christ, that dude is still posting here.. lawl

So are you still in the 5th grade, and care who rides what bandwagon?
atleast you can say something smart rather than something that doesn't even pertain to the thread...

[DJPyro]

Originally Posted by BigVinnie

So are you still in the 5th grade, and care who rides what bandwagon?
atleast you can say something smart rather than something that doesn't even pertain to the thread...

pot to kettle, pot to kettle... You are black, over.

He asked about the vac pump he is running.



Greaser, do you have a build thread for this thing hiding somewhere? I'd be interested in checking out more details on the build, like header used etc...

[Greaser_]

Originally Posted by Prok0

Jesus christ, that dude is still posting here.. lawl

You said you were running a vacuum pump greaser? Any info on that?

Its not actually a pump. I'm using my factory fuel rail (without injectors installed) with 2 -6an fittings on each end to a 5 gallon tank with check valves. It stores 15" of vacuum for about 20 seconds of full throttle use. The tank then connects to the valve cover breather and all other ports of the motor are plugged.


i will be installing an electric pump in the future since this is a multi use car where i'll be full throttle more than not.


in a 3rd gear pull in the dyno the tank is at 15" and by the end of the pull its at about 13".

[Greaser_]

Originally Posted by BigVinnie

wtf? What are your engine temps and A/Fr's looking like?
I know a couple guys in brazil I've been chatting with that use a ethanol/methanol mixture but the Compression ratio, is way higher like in the 12:1 and 13:1...........

If you are going to start messing around with loads of ethanol,methanol.... You may want to watch the proportions of methanol, it will degrade your nitril injectors.

engine temps and a/f's are what they always are 150-180 and 12:1-13:1

do you have any comparitive dyno's from your research?




and before i do any fueling changes i'll be modifying the fuel system to suit.

[Greaser_]

Originally Posted by DJPyro

Greaser, do you have a build thread for this thing hiding somewhere? I'd be interested in checking out more details on the build, like header used etc...

not a build thread just pics/videos. http://forums.freshalloy.com/showthread.php?t=182316

[DJPyro]

Aweseome, thanks This has been discussed so many times and you're the only person I'm aware of that has had any great success with it.

I've got some fun plans for an old Datsun Z down the road from me that I'm gonna try and pick up in the spring. This should be some decent reference material. (No it's not gonna be an N/A KA)

[BigVinnie]

I'm still trying to understand your success using ethanol, rather than aromatics (gasoline additives), or even butynol which are all higher in BTU (Kj). Your build isn't that high in CR compared to an s2000 (f22C), or even a higher displacement and compression, to rod stroke ratio such as the VQ37de. All these engines can run on standard streetable 91octane....

Where's the magic at with your K values? Do you have a map to show us?
Engine temp is as you say is normal which would mean there is no real suited use for ethanol. Ethanol is normally provided to cool cylinder temprature due to it's burn off and cooling properties compared to petro fuels. Some people in many cases just increase petroleum gas octanes and aromatics and/to increase fuel richness.

Worst case scenario from people that I have spoken with use aromatics to increase HP since the burn rate (KJ) has higher BTU, energy content than what alcohol can provide, and has a low LHV.


Call me stupid....Seriously I'm baffled.

[jakerps13]

[gsracer]

Greaser,

Im curious as to how much power you dynoed with out the vacuum vs how much power with, also what electric vacuum pump are you thinking of running?

[Greaser_]

Originally Posted by gsracer

Greaser,

Im curious as to how much power you dynoed with out the vacuum vs how much power with, also what electric vacuum pump are you thinking of running?

without the vacuum system or oil in diff/trans, motor produced 202rwhp consistently sae corrected. addition of the vacuum system produced 213rwhp. oil setup produced 217rwhp. as of right now those numbers are 5-10 lower than current numbers.

the vacuum pump i'm thinking about implementing is a VR6 SAI. They call it a secondary air injection but it appears to be a vacuum pump for the crankcase. I disassembled a defective unit and it is a dual stage metal axial flow compressor setup. I **** a brick when i took it apart. When i recieve a working unit i'll test with my extra tank and see what it pulls. I'm going to use it as a full throttle only addition to my already working vacuum system.

Be carefull implementing your own vacuum setup. I've tested on alot of cars and none of them are reaping the benefits that i am. I tested on a 08 350z. It made 6rwhp additional only for about 1500rpm. I tested on several "loose" ring setup race motors 6-800 wheel and the vacuum tank was depleated during the run.

I'm waiting to test on my boss's own race car. A 250fwhp B20vtec. It is essentially the same setup as mine, itb's, ems, cams, headwork, custom header, ect ect. its a tight ring forged piston motor. So i would expect some big gains since its a 9000rpm motor.





For those concerned with durability of the drivetrain with 10w30 instead of gear oil 75w90. i've been to 2 practice drift events, and 1 autocross (where i won my class yeaaaa ) no negative impacts yet. I have some tracking planned at VIR we'll really see then.


this thing excites me as much as my old 10 sec 240.

[Greaser_]

Originally Posted by BigVinnie

I'm still trying to understand your success using ethanol, rather than aromatics (gasoline additives), or even butynol which are all higher in BTU (Kj). Your build isn't that high in CR compared to an s2000 (f22C), or even a higher displacement and compression, to rod stroke ratio such as the VQ37de. All these engines can run on standard streetable 91octane....

Where's the magic at with your K values? Do you have a map to show us?
Engine temp is as you say is normal which would mean there is no real suited use for ethanol. Ethanol is normally provided to cool cylinder temprature due to it's burn off and cooling properties compared to petro fuels. Some people in many cases just increase petroleum gas octanes and aromatics and/to increase fuel richness.

Worst case scenario from people that I have spoken with use aromatics to increase HP since the burn rate (KJ) has higher BTU, energy content than what alcohol can provide, and has a low LHV.


Call me stupid....Seriously I'm baffled.

i wanted you to get to this point and to understand that there are things in this world that you wont have a grasp on why they dont work.

I spent SOOOO much time getting my motor to this point testing things and there were many times I was angry that some ideas didnt make power. I had to learn to accept it and change my thinking to "what works, what doesnt"

i dont understand it either. I tested with oxygenated fuels on another bosses 600whph street class civic. It didnt pick up any repeatable power.


the main and ONLY reason i want to switch to another fuel(mainly alcohol) is for the cooling. It is my assumption that is the only reason i'm picking up power during testing. My injectors are at the throttle opening and even with pump fuel during steady state testing, the runners are getting to about 20 degrees below ambient temp. I already have to travel to get the fuel, I already have to pay a premium for the fuel, the only thing i have to add is fuel system service for my PLAY toy.

[s13dummy]

Originally Posted by greaser

yes, i'm a moron for not going turbo or SR

yes, i should be sponsored by mediocrity.com

Yea you suck brah, some dude ran 10's with an sr like ****in 6 years ago.....

Soemthin like 4-500hp only...

Cant remember his name..........

[drift fiend]

sweet..jus got mine up n runnin ...so hopefully i will be joining that 200 n/a club

[480sx]

Originally Posted by BigVinnie

E85 and methanol will only lower your HP numbers unless you add retard to your intake cam, use larger injectors, and up the fuel pressure.

Such garbage. E85 burns very cooly allowing you to advance your timing to levels unreachable with E10 which will make more power. Same is true for Meth. The fuels love timing/boost.

Simply switching fuels is not going to net you any increase in power, and your right, if you just simply switch to E85 with a 30 percent increase in your fuel maps your going to lose power. Its all about tuning around the properties of the fuel, thats where you get your gains.

OP - Impressive stuff, although your still on a Dynojet . I would switch to E85 personally, much cheaper than 100 octane and would be a better fuel for you. Its the sht as far as a bargain race fuel goes. I plan on running it in my Ka-T here soon. Man with all the time and money you have spent i dont see why you havnt upgraded to a FCW crank. Thats kinda the holy grail of the N/A ka build. People have hit 300 hp at 10000 rpms with a FCW crank and all the trimmings.